And so of course, that was only the beginning. And the salivation equivalent was the tilt of the plant? I wanted to talk to them because, as building inspectors they -- there's something they see over and over and over. I don't think Monica knows the answer to that, but she does believe that, you know, that we humans We are a little obsessed with the brain. And then someone has to count. LARRY UBELL: It's kind of like a cold glass sitting on your desk, and there's always a puddle at the bottom. Well, you can see the white stuff is the fungus. ROY HALLING: Like, I say, it's early in the season. They play with sound and story in a way that's incredibly intriguing, I was instantly hooked with More Perfect. But they do have root hairs. So -- so carbon will move from that dying tree. Would just suck up through photosynthesis. MONICA GAGLIANO: It's a very biased view that humans have in particular towards others. ROBERT: But she's got a little red headlamp on. It's a family business. It didn't seem to be learning anything. Just a boring set of twigs. I mean, what? This way there is often more questions than answers, but that's part of the fun as well. So you are related and you're both in the plumbing business? And I wanted to talk to them because, as building inspectors they -- there's something they see over and over and over. That was my reaction. They run out of energy. /locations/california/culver-city/5399-sepulveda-blvd-bank-atm/ As soon as we labeled them, we used the Geiger counter to -- and ran it up and down the trees, and we could tell that they were hot, they were boo boo boo boo boo, right? But maybe it makes her sort of more open-minded than -- than someone who's just looking at a notebook. I mean, Jigs was part of the family. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah. Picasso! Like trees of different species are supposed to fight each other for sunshine, right? So it's predicting something to arrive. Anyone who's ever had a plant in a window knows that. Annie McWen or McEwen ], Latif Nasser, Malissa O'Donnell, Arianne Wack ], With help from Amanda Aronczyk, Shima Oliaee ], Niles Hughes, Jake Arlow, Nigar Fatali ], And lastly, a friendly reminder. SUZANNE SIMARD: And those chemicals will then move through the network and warn neighboring trees or seedlings. No, so for example, lignin is important for making a tree stand up straight. They learned something. Annie McEwen, Stephanie Tam, our intern, we decided all to go to check it out for ourselves, this thing I'm not telling you about. But what -- how would a plant hear something? We showed one of these plants to him and to a couple of his colleagues, Sharon De La Cruz ROBERT: Because we wanted them to help us recreate Monica's next experiment. Don't interrupt. LINCOLN TAIZ: Yes. Like, the tree was, like, already doing that stuff by itself, but it's the fungus that's doing that stuff? Well, it depends on who you ask. JAD: Wait. And I remember it was Sunday, because I started screaming in my lab. ALVIN UBELL: They would have to have some ROBERT: Maybe there's some kind of signal? JENNIFER FRAZER: Finally, one time he did not bring the meat, but he rang the bell. Then Monica hoists the plant back up again and drops it again. Special thanks to Dr. Teresa Ryan of the University of British Columbia, Faculty of Forestry, to our intern Stephanie Tam, to Roy Halling and the Bronx Botanical Garden, and to Stephenson Swanson there. And so they have this trading system with trees. They designed from scratch a towering parachute drop in blue translucent Lego pieces. So that's where these -- the scientists from Princeton come in: Peter, Sharon and Aatish. Just for example. And after not a whole lot of drops, the plant, she noticed, stopped closing its leaves. This episode was produced by Annie McEwen. I'm gonna just go there. Hi. Of Accurate Building Inspectors. ROBERT: No, no, no, no, no. And if you don't have one, by default you can't do much in general. JENNIFER FRAZER: And his idea was to see if he could condition these dogs to associate that food would be coming from the sound of a bell. And for the meat substitute, she gave each plant little bit of food. Like a human would. ROBERT: She took that notion out of the garden into her laboratory. She says we now know that trees give each other loans. Because the only reason why the experiment turned out to be 28 days is because I ran out of time. I mean, I think there's something to that. JENNIFER FRAZER: An anti-predator reaction? But they do have root hairs. So I don't have an issue with that. And if you go to too many rock concerts, you can break these hairs and that leads to permanent hearing loss, which is bad. I don't know. Did Jigs emerge? This is Ashley Harding from St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada. You got the plant to associate the fan with food. Eventually over a period of time, it'll crack the pipe like a nutcracker. And then those little tubes will wrap themselves into place. Along with a home-inspection duo, a science writer, and some enterprising . To remember? And that's just the beginning. ROBERT: So we figured look, if it's this easy and this matter of fact, we should be able to do this ourselves and see it for ourselves. So we're up to experiment two now, are we not? ROBERT: Huh. ALVIN UBELL: And I've been in the construction industry ever since I'm about 16 years old. Don't interrupt. They have to -- have to edit in this together. Remember I told you how trees make sugar? MONICA GAGLIANO: A plant that is quite far away from the actual pipe. They're not experiencing extra changes, for example. Now, can you -- can you imagine what we did wrong? ROBERT: Actually, Monica's dog leads perfectly into her third experiment, which again will be with a plant. So they didn't. Birds, please. Jad and Robert, they are spli Fan, light, lean. These sensitive hairs he argues, would probably be able to feel that tiny difference. But no, they're all linked to each other! They're switched on. And with these two stimuli, she put the plants, the little pea plants through a kind of training regime. It's a very biased view that humans have in particular towards others. No. Because if I let you go it's gonna be another 20 minutes until I get to talk. The light and the fan were always coming from the same direction. I mean, to say that a plant is choosing a direction, I don't know. Like for example, my plants were all in environment-controlled rooms, which is not a minor detail. You found exactly what the plants would do under your circumstances which were, I don't know, let's say a bit more tumultuous than mine. Thanks to Jennifer Frazer who helped us make sense of all this. Can you -- will you soften your roots so that I can invade your root system?" ROBERT: And that's just the beginning. Yeah, and hopefully not be liquefied by the fungus beneath us. And so they have this trading system with trees. ROBERT: Apparently, bears park themselves in places and grab fish out of the water, and then, you know, take a bite and then throw the carcass down on the ground. ROBERT: I know -- I know you -- I know you don't. Like what she saw in the outhouse? Like, if you put food into one tree over here, it would end up in another tree maybe 30 feet away over there, and then a third tree over here, and then a fourth tree over there, and a fifth tree over there. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, I know. And so we, you know, we've identified these as kind of like hubs in the network. ROBERT: And right in the middle of the yard is a tree. So there's these little insects that lives in the soil, these just adorable little creatures called springtails. We dropped. And I'm wondering whether Monica is gonna run into, as she tries to make plants more animal-like, whether she's just gonna run into this malice from the scientific -- I'm just wondering, do you share any of that? But that day with the roots is the day that she began thinking about the forest that exists underneath the forest. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: This is Jennifer Frazer, and I'm a freelance science writer and blogger of The Artful Amoeba at Scientific American. They have to -- have to edit in this together. ROBERT: And for the meat substitute, she gave each plant little bit of food. Was it possible that maybe the plants correctly responded by not opening, because something really mad was happening around it and it's like, "This place is not safe.". So you think that that this -- you think this is a hubris corrector? Then we actually had to run four months of trials to make sure that, you know, that what we were seeing was not one pea doing it or two peas, but it was actually a majority. ROBERT: She took some plants, put them in a pot that restricted the roots so they could only go in one of just two directions, toward the water pipe or away from the water pipe. Radiolab Smarty Plants. Landing very comfortably onto a padded base made of foam. And the tree gets the message, and it sends a message back and says, "Yeah, I can do that.". Wait a second. JENNIFER FRAZER: They're some other kind of category. ALVIN UBELL: In a tangling of spaghetti-like, almost a -- and each one of those lines of spaghetti is squeezing a little bit. But when we look at the below ground structure, it looks so much like a brain physically, and now that we're starting to understand how it works, we're going, wow, there's so many parallels. All right. And the tubes branch and sometimes they reconnect. JENNIFER FRAZER: Yeah. And she goes on to argue that had we been a little bit more steady and a little bit more consistent, the plants would have learned and would have remembered the lesson. The plants have to keep pulling their leaves up and they just get tired. So no plants were actually hurt in this experiment. JAD: You're doing the -- like, okay first it was the roots under the ground all connected into a whole hive thing. She thinks that they somehow remembered all those drops and it never hurt, so they didn't fold up any more. JAD: The part where the water pipe was, the pipe was on the outside of the pot? The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information int We waiting for the leaves to, you know, stop folding. How do you mean? ROBERT: So these trees were basically covered with bags that were then filled with radioactive gas. Would they stay in the tree, or would they go down to the roots? The water is still in there. JENNIFER FRAZER: This all has a history, of course. They're sort of flea-sized and they spend lots of time munching leaves on the forest floor. So I think what she would argue is that we kind of proved her point. Well, let us say you have a yard in front of your house. They just don't like to hear words like "mind" or "hear" or "see" or "taste" for a plant, because it's too animal and too human. And then they do stuff. I think if I move on to the next experiment from Monica, you're going to find it a little bit harder to object to it. The fungi needs sugar to build their bodies, the same way that we use our food to build our bodies. And to me, here are three more reasons that you can say, "No, really! She's working in the timber industry at the time. But she had a kind of, maybe call it a Jigs-ian recollection. That's a parade I'll show up for. They may have this intelligence, maybe we're just not smart enough yet to figure it out. They can't take up CO2. Thud. Like, the tree was, like, already doing that stuff by itself, but it's the fungus that's doing that stuff? So they didn't. Radiolab - Smarty Plants . Little white threads attached to the roots. No, Summer is a real person and her last name happens to be spelled R-A-Y-N-E. Wait a second. Just the sound of it? So he brought them some meat. And the pea plants are left alone to sit in this quiet, dark room feeling the breeze. ROBERT: So for three days, three times a day, she would shine these little blue lights on the plants. What do you mean? Super interesting how alive our plants really are! Today, Robert drags Jad along ona parade for the surprising feats of brainless plants. ROBERT: So let's go to the first. And there was a lot of skepticism at the time. SUZANNE SIMARD: Yeah, he was a curious dog. Like so -- and I think that, you know, the whole forest then, there's an intelligence there that's beyond just the species. Then we actually had to run four months of trials to make sure that, you know, that what we were seeing was not one pea doing it or two peas, but it was actually a majority. ROBERT: One of the spookiest examples of this Suzanne mentioned, is an experiment that she and her team did where they discovered that if a forest is warming up, which is happening all over the world, temperatures are rising, you have trees in this forest that are hurting. ROBERT: She found that the one stimulus that would be perfect was MONICA GAGLIANO: A little fan. ROBERT: I think if I move on to the next experiment from Monica, you're going to find it a little bit harder to object to it. You give me -- like, I want wind, birds, chipmunks Like, I'm not, like, your sound puppet here. So she decided to conduct her experiment. I mean, I -- it's a kind of Romanticism, I think. And so I don't have a problem with that. A tree needs something else. ROBERT: Science writer Jen Frazer gave us kind of the standard story. And these acids come out and they start to dissolve the rocks. But we are in the home inspection business. The part where the water pipe was, the pipe was on the outside of the pot? But now we know, after having looked at their DNA, that fungi are actually very closely related to animals. But maybe it makes her sort of more open-minded than -- than someone who's just looking at a notebook. I don't know. ROBERT: They're father and son. On one side, instead of the pipe with water, she attaches an MP3 player with a little speaker playing a recording of And then on the other side, Monica has another MP3 player with a speaker. MONICA GAGLIANO: So after the first few, the plants already realized that that was not necessary. Monica's work has actually gotten quite a bit of attention from other plant biologists. The fungi, you know, after it's rained and snowed and the carcass has seeped down into the soil a bit, the fungi then go and they drink the salmon carcass down and then send it off to the tree. MONICA GAGLIANO: I purposely removed the chance for a moisture gradient. Well, some of them can first of all, and big deal. Gone. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, tested it in my lab. So this is our plant dropper. But it was originally done with -- with a dog. There was a healthier community when they were mixed and I wanted to figure out why. If I want to be a healthy tree and reach for the sky, then I need -- I need rocks in me somehow. Walker Wolff. ROBERT: And Monica wondered in the plant's case MONICA GAGLIANO: If there was only the fan, would the plant ROBERT: Anticipate the light and lean toward it? And we can move it up, and we can drop it. Fan, light, lean. Fan, light, lean. I do want to go back, though, to -- for something like learning, like, I don't understand -- learning, as far as I understand it, is something that involves memory and storage. So you can get -- anybody can get one of these plants, and we did. Fan, light, lean. Okay? What is the tree giving back to the fungus? Like, from the trees perspective, how much of their sugar are they giving to the fungus? We dropped. Have you hugged your houseplant today? What -- I forgot to ask you something important. They run out of energy. ROBERT: Yeah. Jad and Robert, theyare split on this one. ], [ROY HALLING: Matt Kielty, Robert Krulwich, Annie McEwen, Andy Mills, Latif Nasser, Malissa O'Donnell. You have to understand that the cold water pipe causes even a small amount of water to condense on the pipe itself. Are going to make me rethink my stance on plants. So we've done experiments, and other people in different labs around the world, they've been able to figure out that if a tree's injured ROBERT: It'll cry out in a kind of chemical way. He was a -- what was he? She made sure that the dirt didn't get wet, because she'd actually fastened the water pipe to the outside of the pot. So Pavlov started by getting some dogs and some meat and a bell. Or maybe it's the fungus under the ground is kind of like a broker and decides who gets what. ], [LARRY UBELL: Radiolab was created by Jad Abumrad and is produced by Soren Wheeler. ROBERT: She made sure that the dirt didn't get wet, because she'd actually fastened the water pipe to the outside of the pot. Little fan goes on, the light goes on. It's almost as if the forest is acting as an organism itself. And so I don't have a problem with that. MONICA GAGLIANO: Picasso, enough of that now. Monica says what she does do is move around the world with a general feeling of What if? It's soaks in sunshine, and it takes CO2, carbon dioxide, and it's splits it in half. They can't photosynthesize. SUZANNE SIMARD: And there was a lot of skepticism at the time. JENNIFER FRAZER: Then he would bring them the meat and he would ring a bell. Yes, we are related. Because I have an appointment. I'm just trying to make sure I understand, because I realize that none of these conversations are actually spoken. JENNIFER FRAZER: The fungi needs sugar to build their bodies, the same way that we use our food to build our bodies. They still remembered. So you -- if you would take away the fish, the trees would be, like, blitzed. The little threads just wrapping themselves around the tree roots. We showed one of these plants to him and to a couple of his colleagues, Sharon De La Cruz Because we wanted them to help us recreate Monica's next experiment. They're some other kind of category. . [laughs] When I write a blog post, my posts that get the least traffic guaranteed are the plant posts. So they figured out who paid for the murder. So Monica moves the fans to a new place one more time. Unfortunately, right at that point Suzanne basically ran off to another meeting. Sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh. ROBERT: So the plants are now, you know, buckled in, minding their own business. And not too far away from this tree, underground, there is a water pipe. SUZANNE SIMARD: Jigs emerged. Just for example Let's say it's -- times are good. And when they go in SUZANNE SIMARD: There is Jigs at the bottom of the outhouse, probably six feet down at the bottom of the outhouse pit. And she wondered whether that was true. Kind of even like, could there be a brain, or could there be ears or, you know, just sort of like going off the deep end there. Plants are amazing, and this world is amazing and that living creatures have this ability for reasons we don't understand, can't comprehend yet." Whatever. And after not a whole lot of drops the plant, she noticed, stopped closing its leaves. She made sure that the dirt didn't get wet, because she'd actually fastened the water pipe to the outside of the pot. So that voice belongs to Aatish Bhatia, who is with Princeton University's Council on Science and Technology. MONICA GAGLIANO: Landing very comfortably onto a padded base made of foam. It's a family business. I think there is something like a nervous system in the forest, because it's the same sort of large network of nodes sending signals to one another. Or at the time actually, she was a very little girl who loved the outdoors. Ring, meat, eat. Her use of metaphor. If you look at a root under a microscope, what you see is all these thousands of feelers like hairs on your head looking for water. Which has, you know, for dogs has nothing to do with meat. MONICA GAGLIANO: Picasso! They may have this intelligence, maybe we're just not smart enough yet to figure it out. Or maybe slower? [laughs] You mean, like the World Wide Web? Five, four, three, two, one, drop! I don't know where you were that day. But it was originally done with -- with a dog. They're one of our closest relatives, actually. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: My name is Jennifer Frazer. ROBERT: I know -- I know you -- I know you don't. ROBERT: So the beetles don't want to eat them. ROBERT: But instead of dogs, she had pea plants in a dark room. Sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh. They're not experiencing extra changes, for example. Finally, one time he did not bring the meat, but he rang the bell. They can't take up CO2. It's yours." JAD: Couldn't it just be an entirely different interpretation here? She's not gonna use hot water because you don't want to cook your plants, you know? Nothing delicious at all.". 37:51. ROBERT: They would salivate and then eat the meat. And we can move it up, and we can drop it. Same as the Pavlov. So -- so carbon will move from that dying tree. Me first. Huh. ROBERT: Well, let us say you have a yard in front of your house. That's what she says. Pics! But let me just -- let me give it a try. Okay. Ring, meat, eat. Is it ROBERT: This is like metaphor is letting in the light as opposed to shutting down the blinds. Wait. And Roy by the way, comes out with this strange -- it's like a rake. I've always loved Radiolab. They shade each other out. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. Monica thought about that and designed a different experiment. ANNIE: But I wonder if her using these metaphors ANNIE: is perhaps a very creative way of looking at -- looking at a plant, and therefore leads her to make -- make up these experiments that those who wouldn't think the way she would would ever make up. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: Our staff includes Simon Adler, Brenna Farrow, David Gebel. ROBERT: And we dropped it once and twice. Little seatbelt for him for the ride down. JENNIFER FRAZER: They had learned to associate the sound of the bell ROBERT: Which has, you know, for dogs has nothing to do with meat. ROBERT: This is the fungus. They're all out in the forest. JENNIFER FRAZER: But we don't know. ]. MONICA GAGLIANO: I don't know. They still did not close when she dropped them. MONICA GAGLIANO: My reaction was, "Oh ****!" Had indeed turned and moved toward the fan, stretching up their little leaves as if they were sure that at any moment now light would arrive. ROBERT: Then of course because it's the BBC, they take a picture of it. Yeah. You know, it goes back to anthropomorphizing plant behaviors. ROBERT: And some of them, this is Lincoln Taiz LINCOLN TAIZ: I'm a professor emeritus of plant biology at UC Santa Cruz. They shade each other. JAD: So you couldn't replicate what she saw. Do you have the lens? So he brought them some meat. Or maybe slower? And after not a whole lot of drops the plant, she noticed, stopped closing its leaves. So maybe the root hairs, which are always found right at the growing tips of plant roots, maybe plant roots are like little ears. They secrete acid. Me first. ], Test the outer edges of what you think you know. Would they stay in the tree, or would they go down to the roots? ROBERT: And the classic case of this is if you go back a few centuries ago, someone noticed that plants have sex. On the outside of the pipe. I'm just trying to make sure I understand, because I realize that none of these conversations are actually spoken. She's done three experiments, and I think if I tell you about what she has done, you -- even you -- will be provoked into thinking that plants can do stuff you didn't imagine, dream they could do. A forest can feel like a place of great stillness and quiet. ROY HALLING: It's just getting started. And the -- I'm gonna mix metaphors here, the webs it weaves. So no plants were actually hurt in this experiment. So, okay. ROBERT: And the classic case of this is if you go back a few centuries ago, someone noticed that plants have sex. So this Wood Wide Web, is this just, like, the roots? And it's more expensive. Sorry! I don't know if you're a bank or if you're an -- so it's not necessarily saying, "Give it to the new guy." LARRY UBELL: Good. ROBERT: So they followed the sound of the barking and it leads them to an outhouse. LATIF: It's like a bank? So the deer's like, "Oh, well. In the state of California, a medicinal marijuana cultivation license allows for the cultivation of up to 99 plants. You got the plant to associate the fan with food. Fan first, light after. Because if I let you go it's gonna be another 20 minutes until I get to talk. And we saw this in the Bronx. And then they came back JENNIFER FRAZER: And they found that most of the springtails were dead. To remember? Maybe each root is -- is like a little ear for the plant. ROBERT: For this part of our broadcast, I'd like to begin by imagining a tall, dark, dense, green forest. Start of message. SUZANNE SIMARD: There's an enemy in the midst. They will send out a "Oh, no! Her use of metaphor. I thought okay, so this is just stupid. It's a costly process for this plant, but ROBERT: She figured out they weren't tired. ], [ALVIN UBELL: Maria Mata -- Maria Matasar ], [LARRY UBELL: Maria Matasar-Padilla is our Managing Director. Now the plants if they were truly dumb, they'd go 50/50. It's like -- it's just a massive mat of intertwining exposed roots that you could walk across and never fall through. Join free & follow Radiolab. This is the fungus. You have a forest, you have mushrooms. So you are related and you're both in the plumbing business? Like, as in the fish. Robert, I have -- you know what? In this conversation. Where would the -- a little plant even store a memory? It's okay, puppy. Absolutely not. ROBERT: So after much trial and error with click and hums and buzzes MONICA GAGLIANO: All sorts of randomness. Dedicated to enhancing the lives of the citizens in the communities it serves by responding to their need to be engaged, educated, entertained & enlightened. ROBERT: Isn't that what you do? A little while back, I had a rather boisterous conversation with these two guys. Isn't that what you do? But the Ubells have noticed that even if a tree is 10 or 20, 30 yards away from the water pipe, for some reason the tree roots creep with uncanny regularity straight toward the water pipe. And so the whole family and uncles and aunts and cousins, we all rush up there. MONICA GAGLIANO: I created these horrible contraptions. And moved around, but always matched in the same way together. Pics! This happens to a lot of people. I think there are some cases where romanticizing something could possibly lead you to some interesting results. But ROBERT: We did catch up with her a few weeks later. And why would -- why would the fungi want to make this network? And then she waited a few more days and came back. So I don't have a problem. I go out and I thought there's no one here on Sunday afternoon. So for three days, three times a day, she would shine these little blue lights on the plants. JAD: Are you bringing the plant parade again? MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah. AATISH BHATIA: This feels one of those experiments where you just abort it on humanitarian grounds, you know? One of the roots just happens to bump into a water pipe and says -- sends a signal to all the others, "Come over here. But I wonder if her using these metaphors is perhaps a very creative way of looking at -- looking at a plant, and therefore leads her to make -- make up these experiments that those who wouldn't think the way she would would ever make up. So I think what she would argue is that we kind of proved her point. We dropped. . ROBERT: Suzanne says she's not sure if the tree is running the show and saying like, you know, "Give it to the new guy."